New Blog Topic: WHO’S THE GREATEST?

New Blog Topic: WHO’S THE GREATEST?



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May 11, 2021

New Blog Topic: WHO’S THE GREATEST?

As the great Willie Mays celebrated his 90th birthday last Thursday, the tributes and accolades rolled in from everywhere. Those of us old enough to have seen him play gladly shared our memories of the Say Hey Kid on a baseball field. There’s little doubt that the oldest living Hall of Famer was one of the greatest ever to grace the diamond. He was the ultimate five-tool player with a baseball IQ that

Willie Mays, 1954

was off the charts. And he played with joy and grace, fire and imagination. He also entertained without showboating, making his basket catches in centerfield and running out from under his cap while legging out a triple. Yep, Willie Mays was hard to beat. But was he THE greatest?

Many who watched Willie’s entire career from 1951 to 1973 feel he was the best ever. And, certainly, there’s a case to be made. The numbers speak for themselves and the intangibles are off the chart. Some point out that had he played the bulk of his career in a place like Ebbets Field, Wrigley or Fenway, he may well have hit 1000 home runs. There’s no doubt that Willie Mays was extra special and always will be. Yes, he was the best I’ve seen in my many years of watching baseball. But how, in reality, can you really pick a greatest ever when you haven’t seen them all?

I began learning and loving baseball around 1949. My grandfather, born a day after Ty Cobb in 1886 and a ballplayer himself, talked about Cobb all the time,

Ty Cobb

along with others from the Dead Ball Era. Once I began reading about Cobb I quickly concluded he had to be the best to ever play up to that time. The record number of batting titles, three .400 seasons, the most hits and stolen bases, and the way he played the game with reckless abandon. He must have been something to see. And to a young kid like myself, I thought that no one could be better.

Then I soon began learning of another player. Before I saw his name in print I thought it was Bay Bruth. At least that’s the way it sounded when people spoke it quickly. Of course it was the Babe, and once I began learning about him – his great early pitching career, all the home runs, the magical numbers 60 and 714 – I began to wonder if maybe he was the best, even better than Cobb. I learned about other players from the Dead Ball Era and into the 1920s and ’30s as well, but it was Cobb and Ruth who still seemed to tower over all the others.

It pretty much stayed that way until 1950s when a whole new group of young superstars came into the game, the most prominent of which were Mays, Mantle,

A young Mickey Mantle from the Brace collection

Aaron and Clemente. Mantle jumped out first. Both he and Mays were rookies in 1951, but then Willie spent two years in the service while Mickey solidified his reputation as the best young player in the game. He had the looks, enormous switch hitting power and unbelievable speed that often saw him legging out drag bunts. Could he become the best ever? For awhile it looked like he had a shot until leg injuries and hard living caught up with him. Then Willie returned from the service and hit the ground running, quickly becoming the most dynamic player in the sport.

Hank Aaron was more a quiet assassin, with all the skills that would eventually enable him to pass the Babe in career home runs while becoming the all-time leader in runs batted in and total bases. Aaron could do it all, but didn’t have Willie’s flair and wasn’t quite as good in the outfield. Willie also had Rock Star charisma – the IT factor on the field – that Aaron lacked. Clemente had a higher batting average than Willie or Hank, but didn’t hit as many home runs. Playing in Pittsburgh probably kept him somewhat out of the limelight, but certainly had flair, was an all-time great and not far behind the other two.

But here’s where it gets tricky. Moving forward from there,the game began

A young Hank Aaron in 1954

changing, both in style and substance, and comparing great players from the different eras is not an easy thing. Forget about that gimmicky statistic called WAR, which they now apply to players from the past. That simply doesn’t work to show greatness or rank players who were on the field 75 or 100 years apart. I’m also leaving out many great players here, the likes of Honus Wagner, Rogers Hornsby, Lou Gehrig, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Joe DiMaggio and some others. Can’t discuss them all, but the only one I’ve heard mention of as a possible greatest ever is Wagner, who played from 1897 to 1917, totally in the Dead Ball Era.

Obviously, there’s no one alive today who saw him play and, back in those days, the few films of the early players were grainy and not close enough to show very much, especially compared to what we have today. But some historians still feel Wagner had special greatness as a shortstop and hitter, and might have been the

Honus Wagner early in his career with the Pirates

best. One thing is certain. Wagner could not have made some of the spectacular plays the shortstops of today make for one reason. He wore a small, flat glove with virtually no pocket and no webbing. Those gloves had to be limiting in both the infield and outfield where spectacular catches are made today with the ball being trapped by massive gloves and webbings. So you have to look past those things when judging greatness. Give the great older players today’s equipment and well manicured fields and they would be more than capable of doing what today’s stars do.

Perhaps the best players of the past two decades have been Albert Pujols and Mike Trout. Pujols hit as well as anyone ever his first ten years, easily punching his ticket to Cooperstown, but then began fading and more or less limped home his last

Albert Pujols 2008-09

couple of years. Trout is a guy who can do it all, an exciting player who doesn’t quite have the flair or charisma of a Mays or Clemente. And, of course, today’s game sees players striking a lot out more without the high batting averages of years back. You can thank analytics for that, and the home run or strikeout style of play today might hamper young stars like Juan Soto and Fernando Tatis, Jr. from someday entering the greatest ever discussion.

So it’s really a debate without a possible resolution and a baseball discussion that will surely continue forever. Who was baseball’s greatest player ever?  Like I said, the greatest I ever saw was the Say Hey Kid. But I’ve also seen strong cases made for the Babe, who surely would have been a Hall of Famer as a pitcher had he not shown otherworldly talent with the bat and his ability to hit home runs when few others hit them. And I’m sure Ty Cobb still has his boosters as well as a few others. It’s something fans will always talk about, sometimes quite passionately. But that’s also part of the beauty of baseball. And as one final thought. Happy 90th birthday, Willie Mays.

Bill Gutman

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19 Comments

  1. Paul Doyle · May 11, 2021 Reply

    Bay Bruth beats Tyke Obb
    any day…😁

    • Bill Gutman · May 11, 2021 Reply

      Haha. Not surprised you picked up on that one, Paul. Bay Bruth. Still kind of sounds right to me. I like Tyke Obb, too.

  2. Bill Schaefer · May 11, 2021 Reply

    Believe it or not, before latching on to this website a little over a year ago, I always thought it was Bay Bruth and Tyke Obb. You guys have taught me so much!
    And it is Tris Peaker, right?

    • James Montemurro · May 11, 2021 Reply

      You’re the absolute best Bill!

    • Bill Gutman · May 11, 2021 Reply

      Uh oh, I think I opened the proverbial can of worms. Pretty soon we’ll all be playing the name game.

    • Paul DOYLE · May 12, 2021 Reply

      Correct, Bill.
      Many forget about the great Scandinavian Hall of Famer, Walt terJohnson and his famous “Sonar Sauna” pitch.

  3. Cooldrive · May 11, 2021 Reply

    There’s always the funniest player in the Hall of Fame:
    Joke Ronin

  4. michael keedy · May 11, 2021 Reply

    Well who really knows, but I would say that BILL GUTMAN is the greatest at grappling with an imponderable such as this one. He has touched ’em all in naming the worthiest of candidates and taking into account important variables and assorted yes-buts like newer or older equipment, cozy vs. capacious ballparks, a game that has changed with the passage of time and a slew of career-altering injuries, to name only a few factors helping to make this hot-stove debate eternally inconclusive.

    Some time next year, if my math is even barely mediocre, Dr. Gutman will himself celebrate numero eighty, and at that point we can all wish HIM a joyous conflagration of candles and admit for the record that HE is the greatest baseball penman to come down the pike. Quill, ballpoint or Waterman, it really doesn’t matter.

    Even if he didn’t mention the name “Gil Hodges” one blessed time in his whole friggin’ piece.

    Respectfully,

    /s/ Not That Mick

    • Bill Gutman · May 11, 2021 Reply

      Thanks, Michael, for reminding me of the encroachment of age that is slowly but surely creeping up on not only me, but all of us. Oh well, if it happens I will joyfully blow out the candles and go forward. And now for your satisfaction, Michael, I will say it. Gil Hodges belongs in the Hall of Fame.

  5. Bill Schaefer · May 11, 2021 Reply

    Super stuff Mr. G!

    With dead balls, soggy balls, lively balls, rocket balls, gloves like mittens, no lights, AstroTurf, overgrown infields, bottle bats, corked bats…as you say, it’s impossible to truly compare great players from different eras. And the WAR stat leaves me cold also.

    But bottom line for me, like you, everything considered, Willie Mays was the Best All Around. Ruth a close second. And Willie would definitely have broken The Babe’s HR record had he not been in the Army for most of ’52 and all of ’53. Way before Aaron got there.

    Fortunately, I saw both Mays and Mantle break in, in 1951. Saw Mays make his greatest catch at Ebbets Field and was there when The Mick crashed one of his historic homers at The Stadium.

    Mantle was the most gifted player of all time. In ’51, he would have given a cheetah a run for his money. His power was Paul Bunyanesque from both sides of the plate and he had two lofty batting averages, right up there with Williams and Musial.
    But Mick was severely injured throughout and, of course, didn’t possess Mays’ instincts in the outfield. Plus, he did not take care of himself, as you know.

    • James Montemurro · May 11, 2021 Reply

      Willie lost at least 100 home runs to the distant fences, cold and winds of the Stick. Don’t forget.

    • Bill Gutman · May 11, 2021 Reply

      Agree with everything you say, Bill. Willie just had it all, excelled at every aspect of the game. And, yes, Mickey certainly looked as if he’d possibly be a candidate for best ever when he came up. Incredible power, incredible speed and those two seasons of high batting averages, not to mention a triple crown. A shame that injures to his knees and legs took so much away from him, as well as all those nights out on the town. And he certainly did not have Willie’s consummate skills in the outfield or as good a throwing arm. But what a beautiful swing he had. By the way, mentioned to a good friend of mine, also a longtime fan who grew up rooting for the NEW YORK Giants and I believe is your age, that imagine what Willie would have done if his home park for his entire career was Wrigley or Fenway, or Ebbets Field. My friend quickly replied, he would have hit 1,000 home runs and had a .350 lifetime average. Really not so far fetched, is it?

      Bill

  6. Dave Bancroft · May 11, 2021 Reply

    I’ve got to go with the Bambino, with Cobb a close second. The real argument is, if guys like Oscar Charleston and Josh Gibson had been allowed to compete in the major leagues, what numbers would they have put up?

    • Gary Livacari · May 11, 2021 Reply

      Excellent points Dave.

    • Bill Gutman · May 11, 2021 Reply

      Great observation, Dave. There were so many great players relegated to the Negro Leagues that had they played in the majors from the beginning, the whole history of pre-1947 baseball would have been different. But, alas, we’ll never know due to the shame that was the “color line.”

  7. Bill Schaefer · May 11, 2021 Reply

    Monte (The World’s Greatest Baseball Fan),

    They moved the left field fence in over 30′ at Candlestick, in 1960. And the wind carried drives over the right center screen that wouldn’t have gone out otherwise.

    I would have thought the same as you, until I stumbled on a blurb from a guy who researched it. The SF Giants, from 1960 through 1971, actually hit a few more homers at the Stick than on the road. I then went to the book, and he was right.

    The first couple of years on the coast hampered Mays’ production. By just how much I’m not sure. He did hit .347 in ’58.

    Dave–not at all familiar with Oscar C. From all reports, Josh Gibson was awesome.

    • Bill Gutman · May 11, 2021 Reply

      Didn’t know they moved the fence in that far at Candlestick. Willie’s greatness certainly overrode the ballparks in which he played. But had he not lost those two years to the service and played in one of the bandbox parks mentioned above, his final stats certainly might have been mind-boggling.

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